Pastor John Fenn Given a Mind-Blowing, Detailed Tour of Heaven

What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up.

I Cor 14:26


And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind, and it filled the entire house where they were sitting.

Acts 2:2


Give my greetings to the brothers at Laodicea, and to Nympha and the church in her house.

Col 4:15


For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst.

Matt 18:20


And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.

Acts 2:42


And every day, in the [Jewish] temple and from house to house, they did not cease teaching and preaching Jesus as the Christ.

Acts 5:42


And Apphia our sister and Archippus our fellow soldier, and the church in your house

Phil 1:2


The churches of Asia send you greetings. Aquila and Prisca, together with the church in their house, send you hearty greetings in the Lord.

I Cor 16:19


How I did not shrink from declaring to you anything that was profitable, and teaching you in public and from house to house

Acts 20:20


Greet Prisca and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus, who risked their necks for my life, to whom not only I give thanks but all the churches of the Gentiles give thanks as well. Greet also the church in their house.

Rom 16:3-5


For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function, so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them...

Rom 12:4-6


For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function, so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them...

Rom 12:4-8



DESCRIPTION: After his father divorced his family, John Fenn found comfort in a relationship with God. Following learning to forgive, while a pastor, he was given a mid-blowing, detailed tour of Heaven that will keep you wanting to hear more! You’ll hear about the houses, neighborhoods, children, families, etc. But oh, wait until you hear about the “Throne Room of God”–it’s mind-blowing!

TRANSCRIPT: Hi everyone, this is Jennifer Bagnashi with deep believer we have a fantastic guest with us today his father left him
when he was just a young boy so he had a void there but god the father became his
father and taught him many things you’ll want to hear this but that’s not all later in life holy spirit gave him a
detailed tour of heaven his name is John Finn thank you so much for
joining us today thanks for having me Jennifer glad to be here so john tell me tell me tell me tell me
what was your upbringing were you raised in a Christian home um did you gradually become a Christian how was your
childhood well childhood was actually very good um you know my dad was a business owner
my mom took us to church every every Sunday I’m the oldest of four kids
uh we were raised Episcopalian, so it was the same liturgy you know time in time out um just an
upright family uh until um you know when you’re a kid you don’t
know the problems that your mom and dad have but when we were when I was 11 and a
half and we were 11 9 7 and 5 we four kids when I was 11 and a half dad left the
family and that uh you know that changed our world
completely we went from upper middle income maybe or middle class you know the late 1960s
to my mom struggling to keep the house and the you know two and a half acres of land
and all of that that goes with it so it was a an abrupt turn of events when I was about 11 and a half so before your
father left were you guys a family of faith no not at all not at all um
but you know we we I mean everything was good it was the late 1960s so
um you know because of both sets of grandparents there was a lake cottage there was a boat there were camping
trips you know everything like that but we weren’t really a people of faith or anything uh my mom came to the lord when
my dad left that’s when she went that extra step because she later
explained to me she said I I had never experienced anything like you know the last thing I thought would
be my husband leaving me for somebody and uh and so she just turned to God so she was
always godly in that sense my grandmother on her side was Mennonite by upbringing and so there was always this
element but it we were more church people than we were Christians or faith
you know I don’t uh you know beyond that there wasn’t anything so you mentioned to me earlier that your
father left you said he divorced his children
right what happened was that my little sister who was five at the time uh didn’t understand what divorce was
you’re I mean for us you know it’s ancient seems so long ago when I say it was 1969
but that’s the truth of the matter in the circle that our family moved in divorce
was just not heard of and it was 1960s I mean it wasn’t that that common and so when my sister didn’t understand
dad said and he wasn’t trying to be hurtful he was just trying to lay it out there he’s very analytical man
and he said I’m divorcing your mother I’m divorcing you kids there won’t be any birthdays ball games
Christmas I won’t be around for holidays or anything like that and so those
words had an impact on me at 11 and a half they were just like you know a knife to the heart uh in
terms of rejection and uh and as it turned out um he ended
up marrying a lady with two children of her own and that that became the focus of his attention
um even Jennifer to the point that by the time I could drive I had to meet my dad at the office and he
said remember he said this this meeting never took place uh because uh at that time now she’s
fine with everything I mean decades have gone through but at the time he had promised to not have anything to
do with us and so the ongoing rejection between ages 12 to
16 17 years old where the only way I could see my dad were to sneak in the back door at his office and then him to
start her end every meeting with this name with saying this never took place
you can’t say anything to my wife you can’t say anything to you know anybody and
of course I was going there because especially by the time I was getting ready for college and thinking about
college we had to work through who paid what and and everything so you know we had these little clandestine meetings
you know in in the back door of his office and but it was an ongoing you can imagine a teenager that’s an ongoing
set of rejections you know all the ball games that he he’s he said you know I’ll be there for the ball game I’m going to
sneak out and I’m going to watch you at the ball game and then he never showed up you know and so there are dozens and
dozens of those broken promises between ages 11 and a half and you know really through uh the first year of college
uh and so you build up this this rejection um you know my dad doesn’t want me
you know I I’m fatherless I’ve got to help my mom raise my little brothers and my sister
um you know there was just there was a lot of rejection there was a lot of self-image issues with me as a result
because my dad had rejected me at least in my mind uh even though I knew that there were issues later you know between mom and
dad when you’re a kid you don’t understand that they’re adults just trying to get through life you know what I mean and
so it was there was a lot of rejection a horrible self-image uh wondering why I was here I in those four years between
the time he left and the time I turned my heart over to the lord I dropped out of every single thing I was involved in
I had been taking art lessons I dropped out I was a boy scout I dropped out because I could see every other boy in
the boy scouts had a dad and I was the only kid without a dad and they would go camping it was a father
something I was like you know I dropped out of that eventually through over those four years I had I had flying lessons because my
dad had his own airplane and so I thought I’d take flying lessons and became part of a group that that did
that and I took lessons I flew but I never got my license I dropped out I took scuba
lessons you know I’m not sure what I was going to do with my life but I thought you know I I like the idea of scuba
diving never took my check dive I dropped out just I flunked my first semester of algebra as a freshman I just
didn’t care about life I had a huge rejection self-image
and just apathy towards life when my dad said I’m divorcing your mother I’m divorcing
you kids it just had a huge huge impact in my heart I was searching for a father
during the ensuing four years before I came to the lord I I was searching for a father
and and let me say this in in hindsight there were several men that the father god
brought into my life along the way that were godly examples
um the dads of some of my friends in school and and these are these are now men but
these are boys you know my age 12 13 14 15 years old I’m still good friends with
to this day and their dads were like um uh like marks along a timeline you know
that this man had a positive impact in this way another man had a positive impact this way so I had father figures
that I could see around me but they were other other friends dad they weren’t my dad
but they provided a good example so it was like the father did not leave himself without a witness but at the time it only made me feel my
emptiness just that much more because they had a dad and they were godly dads they were good
good dads they were good people um but I was still searching for a father
for my own father yeah yeah and I know you mentioned to me it was a little harder too because
you were super tall you were are you six six I’m six six yeah six six and because
almost too many yeah for europeans yeah so so you were that tall so your
mother saw you as what what did she see you as well when I when I was 18 and headed off
to college or maybe I was back home between semesters I don’t remember but she apologized to me she said john
she said I am so sorry I realize now that I treated you like an adult when you were 12 13 14 years old
she said but you were just so big and it you know and so I was like I was
she went back to get her master’s and MBA so that she could get a decent job to hold on to the house so I did the
babysitting for my little brothers and my sister and I drove her because she couldn’t drive at night uh cataract
issues and stuff and uh so she couldn’t drive at night so I would drive her an hour to school and pick her up and you
know so I was like a right-hand man I you know almost two acres two and a half acres to mow so I I mowed the grass and
and uh kind of corralled my little brothers and my sister you know when needed and um
it was a I had to grow up fast and there was a big weight of responsibility from that and that made
turning to the father all the more when when my friend Janie in German class in my freshman sophomore
junior year especially sophomore year of high school when she as a roman
catholic said you know you Episcopalians and we roman Catholics use the same liturgy she said but I know the god
behind the liturgy that intrigued me and
you know I shared with you earlier with the re the way I got saved after watching she and her boyfriend and
watching all the answered prayers I watched seven answered prayers uh between she and her boyfriend
and then I led my girlfriend to the lord and of course she ended up marrying her boyfriend I ended up marrying my
girlfriend and we double dated and they brought us along in the lord but the thing is when I got saved I didn’t I
didn’t pray a prayer of salvation the standard way I just thought very logically I said I said Lord Jesus
you know I believe that you’re going to have the last word the last say on my life on that last day
so it only makes sense to serve you now and and I said come into my heart change me
whatever you do but I give you my life that was kind of like the prayer of salvation for me but I got to tell you
Jennifer the the thing that my heartbeat is that I never
I never really spent a lot of time on Jesus from that standpoint I recognize that john chapter 14 and
verse 6 Jesus said I’m the way the truth and the life but nobody comes to the father but
by me or and nobody comes by me so I recognized as as a good friend of
mine concisely said one day Jesus is the way but the father is the
destination and somehow intuitively in my spirit I knew that Jesus is the way but the
father was my destination and from that point on I just started addressing the father and I could see in scripture the
lord’s prayers to the father every prayer in the New Testament is to the father every request every every ask that we
have it is always to the father throughout the new testament from the lord’s prayer on and so I got to know my father
and to this day he and I I feel like we have a close relationship and that’s
probably a factor when he told me I was called to be a seer when I was a teenager
and probably why to some degree that the lord you know started appearing to me
since 1986 and still visited visits me you know from time to time to teach me
things prophetic things there’s a mutual love of the father and I’m not saying other people don’t or anything like that
I’m nothing special trust me I’m nothing special I’m not perfect ask my wife ask my kids ask my grandkids I’m not not
perfect but there is this love of the father that was intense from the very beginning
and my I I want every young man and every uh young woman who maybe doesn’t have a dad
around to get to know that they can talk to the father god very conversationally
and he will respond he will communicate back to you and you told me
even that god the father taught you how to do certain things while you were a teenager well because you know suddenly
I was in charge of a 3 500 square foot house two little brothers and a sister
almost two or three acres of of land two and a half I think is what we had and a little riding lawn mower and
everything else and so I remember one time in particular the the riding lawn mower was broken and I
said father you gotta I said how do I fix this what’s wrong with it because I knew money was tight mom wasn’t gonna
have a repair guy or you know whatever and he just walked me through what the repair was and
that kind of thing has happened to me throughout um there was a car we were driving and I’ll
share this give you another example car and when you turn the corner you could hear a grinding
between the rear wheels and I talked to somebody and they said it sounds like the differential which is
a gear in between your rear wheels uh on a rear-wheel drive car and it it needs 90 weight oil
and they said add 90 weight oil and the grinding of the gears should go away well I crawled under there and Jennifer
you probably haven’t crawled under a rear-wheel drive vehicle with a differential but there is a square hole
there’s a square hole and that you and you stick something in there and unscrew it and then you can pour in the oil
well you know I mean what do I know I don’t know anything I’m crawling under there and I see the square hole and I’m
thinking how in the world can you unscrew this plug and I I said father what do I do
distinctly go get your socket wrench and I said no father you don’t understand it’s not a socket that I have
to put you know something over a nut this is a hole it’s a square hole he said go get your socket wrench
and so I crawled out from under there and I I ignored him because I thought okay you know when you’re when you’re
conversing with the father like that you don’t you keep thinking in natural it just seems so normal and so natural that
you just go about your business I couldn’t find anything in my toolbox and so I went to a neighbor’s
and right on top was a socket wrench and the socket wrench has a square protrusion that you set the socket on
and immediately soon as I saw that socket wrench I understood and so I got my socket wrench unscrewed it added the
oil fixed the car that way so lots that’s just one example of lots of little ways that the father would would
talk to me and I learned how to hear his voice pretty good it was like a trial and error uh back in the day you know I’m 64 as
we’re recording this back in the day you tune the radio you know and you’d hear you get close to the ceiling
and then the signal would come in strong and you go back the other way on the dial on your radio and sometimes I felt
like that I felt like I was hitting and missing it but it was like I wanted to get the right wavelength so that I could
hear his voice and hear what he was communicating every time and so gradually that that became my focus
and was until the lord appeared to me on October 1st of 86 to teach me in much more detail about how the father
communicates oh man I’m excited to hear that we’re going to get to that really soon but I just want to ask you a
question where viewers may be wondering in the back of their head did your
father eventually rightfully reconcile with you your
siblings and your mother uh no not really um he
keeps in touch with one of my little brothers who generally takes the initiative to call
him once or twice a year um the rest of it no he you know he really hasn’t wanted to have
anything to do with us I’m actually closer to my uncle his brother to my uncle uh than I am
I just haven’t talked to my dad in ages uh so there was one time when our
children were younger um maybe the late 90s late 1990s maybe 25 30 years ago
that I kind of forced I said we’re going to be in your area would you like to at least meet your
grandchildren and uh he was kind enough to to come over and meet my kids you know they were
younger like I said and uh and that we stayed for about 40 minutes and so we
talked and that was the last time I’ve I’ve seen him you pray for him and stuff like that and he could pick up the phone
today and we’d just pick up where we left off there’s no you know one of the one of the proofs of
divine healing inside is that the memory remains but there’s no pain associated with it
and so and so that’s um you know that
it took me 10 years to work through forgiveness we didn’t get into this maybe this is a bit of a rabbit trail
but when Jesus said in mark 11 25 as you stand praying forgive
that made forgiveness a decision not an emotion
and I understood that very early on so at age 16 I recognized I had to make the
decision to forgive and trust me you know as a kid I was I was not without blame I mean there
were things I said and things I did anger out of anger out of rejection out of
hurt and everything else uh but I said you know in out loud and in print and whatever to
my dad just out of anger just because he just walked out but I made the decision at six age 16 uh
then to forgive that is a decision the emotions took 10 years to work through and people unfortunately aren’t taught
the Jewish concept of forgiveness which is what I’m sharing now and I’m not going into detail but it is that they
say that forgiveness is a decision and you work through the the emotions because in the law of the trespass you
had the vertical which was the guilt of sin but then you also had the horizontal which was the injury
and so a person can can deal with forgiveness vertically between them and god say I forgive that person but
horizontally you have to work through the injury that they caused whether they want to reconcile or not
you still have to work through it and so what happened with me is over the course of 10 years marriage kids
I started you know the father would bring I some people might have thought it was
the devil but I took it as the father god would bring things up to remembrance and as soon as I would get them and I’d
rehearse them a little bit in my mind I’d get stirred up and angry again and I said no no no I bring it back to my
decision at age 16. I forgive and and then that that memory would be would be
just gone and maybe a day or two later or a week or a month later there would be another memory so over the course of
10 years I dealt with everything that I had in my memory bank about all the broken promises
all the anger etc. and so when I was 26 years old it was around Christmas when I was 26. the final thing
I had to work through was I I did not have my teenage years with a dad around that was the big thing and somehow if
then myself I just said you know what I’m okay with that I’m okay with that I turned out okay
and it was gone and so now I have the the memory of all those things but there’s no pain associated at all and
that’s why I say my dad could pick up the phone right now and we’d just pick up where we left off because there’s absolutely no pain associated with any
of it praise god now is how god can change the whole situation what seems impossible becomes possible so I want to
go into where you told me I was just going to say you have to be
sure I just say you have to be sure to that when you work through and stir that up you bring it back to your original
decision to forgive okay final word
and so um you’re good so so I wanted um I wanted to go to
where you mentioned that because this starts you off on your spiritual journey
of you seeing and the natural and the supernatural god the father or holy spirit told you
that you would become a seer tell us about that how old were you during that time and what did you start
to see what was the first thing you begin to say well yeah I was like 16 years old 17 years
old um I didn’t know what it was um I had to look it up uh I think it’s
in first samuel chapter nine maybe it says that the seer is an old word for
prophet um and they were called seers because they could see in the spirit realm but
my journey was not like oh boy I’m called to be a c because I I was raised in pisces so I
had zero knowledge of of the bible really you know I mean we listened to our priests 20 minute homily you know
and uh you know his little message with a little bit of humor and that was it and
so when I started reading my bible I started I just assumed when I read the
book of acts that that was normal Christianity as the book of acts was presented itself over
the course of 30 years of history of church history from Pentecost on or the ascension of Jesus on um I just
thought that was normal so as people saw Jesus appeared to Paul um
you know he appeared you know in Damascus in Corinth when he was in Jerusalem
Cornelius saw an angel peter raised a girl from the woman from the dead you know all these different
things I just thought it was normal Christianity to see the lord see angels cast out demons
heal the sick that to me was normal and so when I and then I started reading the bible I saw
Adam and eve walking and talking with the Lord, and I realized they had to be able to see the garden around them plus they saw the lord so their eyes were
open to both realms at the same time and then I read in second king six when Elisha
is surrounded by the enemy army and his servant is afraid and he says lord open up his eyes so he can see what I see
and the lord did so and so the servant saw not only the surrounding army but he saw an army of angelic
chariots and an angelic army surrounding them so they saw both in the natural and the spirits at the same time so that
became in my mind that was just normal Christianity so when I was in high school they’re
just little things that I was a little mini mini visions type of things where I would just see things here and there and
just maybe if I’d pray for somebody I’d get a little picture like a word of knowledge presented in picture form or something
which is normal that’s not a sign of being a seer that’s just a normal function of the gifts of the spirit even
though I had that desire um I got kind of a slap in the face uh
just by listening in in 1980 I heard a teacher bible teacher say if he never saw the lord if he’s never saw an angel
he never went to heaven etc. that he would be just fine with that that he he would know the lord by his word and I it
was like a rebuke even though it wasn’t intended he was just speaking it out but it was like oh my I better double check
myself I’ve had this desire since I was a teenager now I’m at that point I’m uh when am I 58 68 78 so I’m I’m 22 years
old and these last six years I’ve been trusting and believing that this is normal Christianity
but you know should I be willing to just live the rest of my life just knowing the lord but if I don’t see anything supernatural then that’ll be okay and I
wrestled until I finally came to a point that said okay if I never if the book of acts is not normal
Christianity if all I have is my personal faith then then that’s fine and that I’ll tell you what Jennifer that
was that took a long time to wrestle with within me until I could actually truthfully tell the father
uh you know if I never see the lord or angels or anything like that then I’ll be fine with that and it took it took a
couple or three months of really hard search and adjustment to come to that and of course then out of the blue April
first 1986 was the first or not April 1st to me April of 1986 is the first
time I saw the lord and uh and that was the start of a journey that lasts to
this to this day yeah okay we’re going to get to that but I want to get to something you mentioned
earlier you talked about seeing in the natural and the supernatural you mentioned to me
about the five senses we know we have five senses but you mentioned something even deeper that
never crossed my mind what did you tell me well when the lord appeared to me October 1st of
1986 and he said I want to teach you how uh
how the father communicates one of the first things he went to was the example of Luke chapter 16 verses 19 through 31.
where a story is presented where a rich man who had a beggar named Lazarus laid at
his gate the beggar Lazarus it says the dogs came to lick his sores the beggar just hoped to get some crumbs from the
rich man’s table and in the course of time that text says both men died and
went to their respective places the rich man went to hell he obviously was not following the law of Moses because he ignored the beggar which is contrary to
the law of Moses and and the beggar went to Abraham’s bosom or captivity or paradise goes by
several names or went by several names in in Judaism at that time and they both and what the lord brought
out in this visitation is both men’s bodies were buried on the earth but they recognized one another they saw one
another they talked to one another they heard each other the man wanted water because of the heat so sight smell taste
touch and hearing all the five physical senses were intact even though they were
just spirit and soul in their respective places and what the lord told me is this he said the the root of your physical
senses is actually in your spirit man and
that suddenly just opened up revelation that why you know how do people hear angels
sing how do you smell the aroma of the lord or if you’ve been around death there’s a spiritual uh stink to the
smell of death and it’s with your spirit man’s senses so that I understood that with my physical senses
I interact with the physical world but with my spirit man’s senses I interact
with the spiritual world and it is learning how in my soul in my mind to pay attention
to both the physical senses on one hand and my spirit man’s senses on the other and for me to be aware of that
and uh I don’t know if you want me to go on or not about what when I asked the lord for some chapter
versus what he gave me but I’ll let you direct that well I mean well but this even this even explains
how when a person dies they can still you know express that I saw this I felt
this I smelt this like what you said I you know everything was still there it wasn’t or it was even heightened right
right we you know yeah Paul says in romans 8 oh you know 22-24 he says we’re waiting for the
redemption of the bodies we’re waiting to have the uh a body that is made of heavenly material
uh as he said in first Corinthians 15 that this corruption must put on corruption
Jesus has a glorified body he’s got a body made out of heavenly material from a higher plane of existence but when a
person dies right now it’s their spirit and soul which are united can’t be can’t be
separated but it’s the spirit and soul that go to heaven and um you know and awaiting the the
redemption the full redemption of the body like Jesus at His resurrection His body was
transformed into the glorified body that he has now so uh
if a person grows you know Hebrews 5 Hebrews 5 14 believe says that strong
meat is for those who by reason of use have trained their senses to discern
between good and evil and what that means in part is that we have to train ourselves and Jennifer we do this the
lord is communicating to us oftentimes even before we know him these spiritual senses the world uses
things like I had a hunch I have a premonition I don’t feel good about this
or yeah this makes me feel good I think I’m going to go in that direction it what that is is the father god in his
great goodness still communicating down in a person’s spirit man I mean how else would we all come to the
lord if we didn’t if we weren’t responding to the invitation of the father to come and believe on Jesus
and so it’s sometimes people have to get in their minds to say yeah god talks to the unsaved because how else would they
get saved if they’re not drawn Jesus said the father draws them to himself in john chapter 6.
but anyway so it’s it is that you know when you’re at the grocery store and you see a
maybe a little old lady and there’s like a little dark cloud rain cloud over her and you say man
that lady is depressed well your mind was drawn to her physical stature or the
look on her face or whatever but in your spirit you felt this darkness this
depression and so that’s what we’re talking about with your spirit man you can sense spiritually where she is and
your mind you have to train yourself in your mind to pick up on to be sensitive to these things and actually respond to
them and so that’s a that’s a lifestyle and and it you know for what we do in the in
house church and uh and everything that is that sensitivity to one another is just
a very normal you learned that the gifts of the spirit were not designed to be in the four walls of a church they were designed to
be out there in real life and so if you start living like that that sensitivity you start asking the father do you have
anything for this waiter or waitress do you have anything for this person I’m running across in the grocery store you start thinking in those terms
uh because your mind is always shifting between your natural senses and your spirit man’s senses
that’s good that’s really good john food spiritual food so john you had this
huge detailed tour of heaven could you tell us about this tour of heaven and what
you saw in all the beautiful galore well
I don’t know if we’ve got the time but the the actual tour happened in 1989 86 was the first time the lord
appeared to me in a teaching visitation but in 1989 he had told me he said I want to I’m going to give you a tour of
heaven real quickly I was I was a pastor of a church a small country church and I was just in the sanctuary praying I was
kneeling down had my hands up and suddenly my eyes were open to that realm
where my eyes were wide open in the natural so I saw the church and everything else but my eyes were all so open to the spirit realm
and I saw my angel’s arm his forearm from his elbow down in the air and he said and he said
take hold of my hand and I watched my spirit man’s hand arm come up out of my physical
and grab his hand and when I did it was just like being pulled out of my body just and
we were just flying through space at what seemed was space at a tremendous speed
in fact when I turned around to try to find the planet earth I couldn’t even find I couldn’t identify our solar
system or anything um and I was I was surprised that the
that you never get any closer to the stars than what you you know it’s on earth you think okay the stars are out
there but if I could fly through space I’d get closer to them well the distances are so vast uh I guess you
know flying through space it’s like they’re just as far away and we started to de-accelerate when I
couldn’t find the earth they started to de-accelerate so I turned around and there just suspended was this huge
walled city the walls like 20 stories high pure white pure white light
and I realized that as I looked into that white light of the walls I could if I focused I looked in there to the walls
and I could see lots of different colors and the uh the walls had um
jewels in them and not jewels like the size that you would wear on a on a wedding ring or or an anniversary ring
or something like that these were like four and five feet long embedded in the in the stones of this of
the city especially the lower parts of it it was just amazing and beautiful all the different colors
but if you were just a glance at it you’d say wow that is pure white pure glory of god but if you looked into
the light then you could see all the colors so we came up over the wall of the city and I remember looking at the
architecture and it was from all ages and from all over the world uh flat roofs uh pitched roofs the little onion
dome things that eastern European churches have on top of them not that there were churches but there
were just like towers with these you know there was just architecture from all over the world broad boulevards uh narrow streets I
didn’t see any vehicles just people walking around there were homes of all kinds of like I’ve explained a Philadelphia row house
in New York row house where you all have the same sidewalk going up um and just people walking around and then
where we landed the angel and I landed in a grassy area and there was a
small stone wall to my right that was like the oh were there homes and everything and
off to my left it was just grass and trees and forests and and everything and the river of life or
a tributary part of it I don’t know that was running to my left probably 50 feet across that bee you
know close to 15 or 20 meters across and grass growing right down to the water’s
edge and I got the water was making its own waves it was so happy
so alive that it was making its own waves and when I looked over there I giggled like a school girl I mean I literally I
told you this before earlier I I looked at these waves and I just started going
and I’d have to look away just keep from laughing it was just I just felt like wow you know it just made me happy
and running through there was a rustle in the grass on the other side and I thought okay that’s curious it was
like the top of a back of an animal because the grass is 18 inches maybe 20 inches tall maybe two feet I don’t know
but I could see an animal coming and then just at the water’s edge I saw who it was it was our golden retriever Abby
that had been hit by the school bus and she jumped with one leap over that
over that river and came running over and sat at my feet tongue hanging out not because she was
tired but just because that’s golden retriever look you know looking up into my eyes and I suddenly heard her say
where’s barb and the boys or heard her think where’s barb and the boys my wife barb and the boys my head snapped around
my angel and I was like my dog just talked to me
and he said when you’re in heaven you can take part in the father’s unlimited knowledge as you have need
because it’s governed by love and I know whoa and I just look back at
her and I and I just in my mind I just I said uh I I know it was by the holy
spirit but by my spirit you know I I just said uh it’s just me
and it’s just they’re not here right now she said okay and on her back was my pet monkey tilly
now when I was 14 years old and a very hurting teenager
back in that day you could buy monkeys at the pet store in the mall and this little squirrel monkey it’s
about a foot tall and it’s a if you look up squirrel monkey online you’ll see what they look
like they’re natives of South America and I bought one I named her tilly I had
her for about a year she died it turned out there was a reason she was small for her species
um she had something congenital in there but during that year that brought great healing to nurture something to care for
something and to have the affection back of this little monkey and when I was
there in heaven she crawled up on my shoulders on the back and looked over the top of my head like this like she
used to do when I was 14 years old and you know the way what happened
I don’t think that all pets necessarily automatically go to heaven but when Abby got hit by the school bus
yeah and I remember it distinctly because we made a little headstone for her January 1989.
Abby is the dog January 3rd 1989 and and our boys were young and we it was very
traumatic for my wife and my kids for me that she would get hit and killed by school but so abruptly taken from us
and such you know a dog and young children so emotionally part of the family and here she was several months later in
1989 she’s in heaven we had prayed at her funeral quote unquote uh that the
father would take her to heaven and the rationale was the same rationale I’d used years earlier
when tilly died when I was 15 14 15 years old right at 15. um
you know I I came back later a year and a half later after I was born again and I said
father Elijah was taken away by chariots pulled by horses Jesus is coming back on a horse
revelation 19 says that the saints are coming back riding white horses so if there are horses in heaven then why not
a monkey and that’s what I said as a teenager I said I don’t the word cloning was not in
the vocabulary back then and you know 19 you’re talking 1976 at that point 1975 1976 and so I uh I just
said if you make a duplicate if it’s really her I don’t know I just I I would like tilly in heaven
so there was in 1989 I saw that the father in in retrospect even though I
was not saved until he died that he was kind enough and I don’t know how he did that I still don’t know but
all I know is my tilly was there in heaven and uh and then she climbed back on
abby’s back uh just like a horse rider and holding on to her fur and they turned around
they went back they jumped once over the over the river and headed off to the right and my angel said the children in
school really enjoy them and so to cut time wise on you know where we are the
angel and I jumped with one jump over the river I remember thinking Jesus when he walked
on the water in the gospels Matthew 14 mark 6 john 6.
I I thought you know Jesus this probably wasn’t the first time Jesus walked on water because I knew somehow intuitively that
the angel and I could have walked across the water we could have swum in the water we could have waded through the water
but we but for whatever reason we just took a step and just kind of jumped over it
uh at that tremendous distance 50-60 feet on the left side there’s
there’s this low uh will look like a brick building and there was a door in the end of it and
kids had come out of it and this was some sort of schooling and my mind is kind of going like bunkers because I’m
thinking school really um but I started thinking you know Sir Isaac Newton was a
Christian he invented so many parts of you know mathematics can you imagine being taught by Isaac newton you know
can you imagine talking to Jonah about his experience in the whale can you you know all these different stuff start
running through my mind I’m thinking man I want to go to school again um but all these kids were playing but what
they were playing with Jennifer were there was the the usual you know dogs and cats and turtles and lizards and
and pets that that people have that kids have uh that the father’s good enough to have
in heaven evidently some kids have prayed you know can my little fish be in heaven or whatever
but there were African animals there was a giraffe on the other side of this wall just kind of watching what was happening
and bending down its neck and kids were rubbing it behind the ears and and there were big cats a kid was wrestling with
like a black panther and another kid with a lion and they were just wrestling and there was communication going on between the animals and the and the kids
you know I mean it was all great fun and I was just amazed but
when we were walking there there were three people three kids that stood out
one was two were two little girls about ages six and eight well eight and ten six and
eight something like that and as we’re standing there I’m just watching this and I asked about the one
girl in particular her hair was honey golden beautiful
the thick rich hair I mean just you know you’ve got a crowd of people and there’s that young girl
eight ten years old with just beautiful hair and so I asked the angel and he said this he said these two girls died in a
cancer treatment center in Houston Texas and at that time then by the spirit those
girls recognized that I was asking questions and and so the angel continued talking he
said the girl with the hair he said on earth she had beautiful hair as well
but when she received treatment all her hair fell out
and she told people it didn’t matter but your father knew that she was just
being brave and putting on a on a on a good show for everyone to be strong
so he made sure when she came to heaven that she had that what else makes me cry
she had the most beautiful hair uh what she had on earth and more so
um and that that was so special that the father knew there was a little girl just being brave she lost all her hair through chemo and
she said it doesn’t matter and and people look like say what she was lying is like no she’s a little girl just trying to be
brave you know there was no deceit in her in her heart and so when she got to heaven the father
the angel said your father uh made sure that she had beautiful hair the other girl by that time the other
girl they came up together and the little girl said I wasn’t a Christian uh when I got sick and went to the
hospital and met her friend there and she said I wasn’t a Christian she said but but
people would come by volunteers would come by and they’d read me stories and some of those were bible stories and just one day just without any saying
anything or anything I just kind of gave my heart to the lord I just believed in Jesus and so when I died I came here how old
did you well six or she was like six or eight years old okay six or eight maybe seven yeah
now they’re all grown up kids grow up in heaven babies grow up um
you know they so anyway um there was a there was another boy that stood out he
was uh obviously from India um he you know was was about 12 years old thin
thinner um a good-looking kid but clearly from India the black kind of
little kind of hair uh that’s kind of long and and just like a 12 year old kid playing you know doesn’t really care
about styles or anything just he’s just cool you know and um and he told me he said he came
from a very poor family and he said I had heard of Jesus but
just as one of the gods in my country and he said I just thought he was a god like any of the other gods
and he said my family was very poor and because I was oldest I
they didn’t have enough food for me and enough money to take care of me so I uh moved out into the streets and I
survived as best I could he said I stole from people uh I stole food he said I
ate out of the garbage I gave eat out of the trash cans and he said it was a miserable existence
he said I I sniffed glue and paint and anything I could find to dull the hunger pains in my stomach
and and he and the difficulty in my life and he said one day I was weak and he said I was sitting
there but one day I looked out between buildings and there was a field out there that I could see and it was in
the sunlight and there were flowers and grass and butterflies and birds and I just said in
my heart surely there is one god who is the creator who made all that beautiful
things that’s the one I want to know that’s the god I want to know
and he said he said I died a couple months later and I learned that his name is Jesus
the creator’s name is Jesus and that’s who I give my heart to and and believed in at that moment so you know I just I
was I was just amazed at the goodness of our lord of our father that it just is
the turn of the heart you know we we we want to religious we want to make it so religious we don’t realize that there’s
a kid in complete ignorance and all he knows is the creator and that’s what romans chapter 1 says that the things of
godhead can be seen from creation and if people don’t want to acknowledge him as creator then he’ll turn them over
to another mind and and that’s their doing because they reject him but the very first level of knowing God is as
creator and that’s all that boy had um from there we went to a place
that um it’s it’s hard to describe on earth the size of it but there were
angels who were about my size again I’m six six and they were all standing like this
Jennifer they’re all standing like this with the you know you can’t see you know my lower section here but this
their hands like this over their midsection all right and
in between their hands hovering in between their hands was were spheres of was a sphere of
light and these angels were lined up like shoulder to shoulder just a foot maybe or two feet apart you know like
you might do in gym class you know put your arm out and be that distance and and every single and they have a
solemn look on their face they were looking straight ahead like soldiers looking straight ahead there was a solemn to it a seriousness to it a a
holiness a respect in their faces and they wouldn’t be distracted and it wasn’t like formal like military-like it
was just on earth that’s the best thing I can compare it to so there was a seriousness it wasn’t
it wasn’t military-like uh but that’s the best thing I can compare it to the seriousness of a
soldier on duty but it wasn’t military-like at all it was just very solemn and I I I looked at the spheres
of light and on the outside it was like fuzzy fog and I was thinking father I’d love to know what it is that’s on the inside of
those little spheres of light and as soon as I put that request that silent request to the father
suddenly my eyes were open and I could see down inside the one closest to me and it was a baby like a baby in the
womb and my eyes I’m sure about bugged out and I looked at the next one the next
one and I in the I saw every single one of them I looked at my angel I said what what is this because these angels were
like I couldn’t see you know there were so many just standing in in row just boom boom boom the size of the the area
where there were it was just millions of them had to be had to be um and I looked at my angel and and he
said this is where all the miscarried and aborted babies go and it and and they will fulfill they
will grow up and in time they will fulfill their destinies and I just went I just went oh my you
know and I knew from scripture like in exodus chapter 20 I think it is or or 22.
um there’s different scriptures in there like like the law is that if a pregnant
if a pregnant woman is standing there and two men get in a fight and she becomes involved and she loses the
baby suffers a miscarriage god says the the man who was attacking her has to pay
a fine or has to give life for life so there was a recognition there in the book of exodus
that that a baby in the womb is life we know scientifically
that the heartbeat starts at at 18 days in the womb and but none of that
meant anything to me then I didn’t know any of the stats or anything uh or scripture really from that
standpoint it was just that this is where all the miscarried and aborted babies go and in the ages to come they
will fulfill their destinies so from there that was an amazing thing so
from there the next thing he took me to was what I would describe as a nursery I did not see the transition between
between those fetuses those babies those little children in the womb to
becoming a baby I I didn’t see that transition but what I saw was this large grassy
area where there were people and angels uh playing with and taking care of babies and toddlers especially
and then to as we walked by there’s this area where there’s a wall that goes up about 10 feet and then it’s got a floor
that goes out about 10 feet so it’s kind of l-shaped and it goes on for
I don’t know how far long long distance and in that area
where it had a wall and a floor there were play pins and bassinets and
things like that and there were angels and people and they were holding babies that were wrapped in blankets
uh angels and people and I asked about that mix of angels and people and my angel said he said well there are people
on earth who feel called and have that grace to take care of babies and little children and that’s their life their
their ministry their grace to do that so when they get to heaven if they choose they can take part in that he said and
and he said if you can receive this for the most part children are raised by their family members if that’s possible
if that’s possible and he said but if not then angels help out
and so uh later I’m going to fast forward real
quickly and then I’ll come back to this later we were we walked by two little
children who were sitting with their backs against a tree a little girl a little boy the boy was a baby crawling
around under a year older and the little girl was four or five and there were 14 I counted 14 adults
around and it looked like a family reunion type of thing and I knew by the spirit that
this was this girl’s grandparents aunts uncles you know things like that generations that had not known her or
that she had not known and I asked the I asked the angel I said where are her parents I said I’m
recognizing all these not that I knew the people I’m recognizing these are aunts and uncles and grandparents and stuff like that said but I don’t see
anyone you know who’s there I don’t see her parent their parents and he said these children died in a car
accident but their parents are still on the earth and he’s and he reiterated when possible children are raised by
relatives by their relatives and I said I need chapter and verse on that and he said you’ve read Ephesians 3
14 that says for this cause I bow my knees to the father of our lord Jesus
Christ of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named
and he looked at me and said there’s just one family in heaven and earth just one family so it’s like I under suddenly I
understood why children are raised by relatives in heaven until they grow up and everyone who grows up to about age
35 to maturity a little children do but anyway going back to this nursery
so what happened fast forward a little bit is there was a rustle out in the grass
and if you’ve ever somebody’s ridden on an escalator or run up a ramp or run up
stairways imagine that there is beneath the grass some sort of an escalator or ramp or
stairway and what happened is first there’s this rustle in the grass and then I saw the top of somebody’s head
coming up like through the grass and as as it continued to move from my right to left you know the rest of her face
became visible and it was a woman um dishwater blonde hair
I don’t have any idea what what nationality uh she was but she was running like
running up a ramp and you know from beneath which was very strange from beneath but she was running she had her
arms out like this and everyone in that area stopped
and was just looking at her and she was running and I thought and I went ahead
in my in my eyes it’s like okay she’s running into something so I like flashed over to the direction she was running
and there was an angel standing there and he had his back to us he was facing the wall the back wall of the nursery
and he had this baby you could see in his arm from my ankle could just barely see this baby tiny tiny baby
in his arms wrapped in a blanket but he was the only one who was not looking at her everybody else in there was just
looking at her and watching what was happening and he’s like purposely away from her
and this is this gets me I don’t tell this very often but it’s very special
I felt like such an interloper I felt like I was violating something sacred to watch this
she um she ran to that baby and just at the last second that angel
turned turned around and went like this and gave her gave her her baby
and the angel said she died shortly after childbirth
and her heart is is for this bait for her baby
both the baby and the mother died you know obviously childbirth and uh
and there was just like a silence there and I just I just you know I just had to move on
just like keep walking just keep walking you know and let that reunion she took that baby and she spun around Jennifer
she spun around such joy her hair was you know out behind her uh just spinning around and
just just kissing that that little baby it’s like okay
I’ve got to move on you know because I just like I said when I was there I just felt like I was an interloper I felt
like you know how could I it was such a sacred such a private moment between mother and child and I don’t know
whether it was a boy or a girl but just to be told the baby died in childbirth that she died shortly thereafter
so that was that was amazing that was amazing john let’s go back to a little bit when
you said that you saw houses in heaven when you first entered in you said there were different houses
there were row houses and you even told me there were tree houses now we know the bible says that in my father’s house are many mansions
but you know the interpretation of what that really means and can you share with us what you saw in
paralleling it with scripture sure sure
in john 14 2 Jesus uh is actually reciting part of the
betrothal ceremony that a young man would state to
his fiancee when he would go to the to the girl’s father’s house to ask permission to
marry and he would if she accepted he would bring he would put forth a cup of wine
and if she accepted his proposal she would take that cup of wine and drink it
and then he would recite and he would say in my he would say I’m going to prepare a place for you that where I am
you may be also in my father’s house there are many rooms to live in I’m going to prepare a
place that’s what Jesus said in john chapter 14 verse 2. if you look in the Greek if
you look at the Aramaic if you look in any translation the word mansion is not there historically I learned in bible
school back in 1979 historically the translators of the king James English version
did not want king James to feel ripped off that he being the king of England would
live in a regular house when he went to heaven so they inserted the word mansion and the rest as they say is history
so what it doesn’t make sense grammatically even in my father’s house there are mansions you know how do you
put mansions in my father’s house you know you we would never use that
grammatically but what he did say it’s the same word for abode or places to live it’s you it’s used the exact same
word is used in john 14 23 just just 20 verses later uh 21 verses later so he
said in my father’s house there are many places to live I’m going to prepare a place for you and
in heaven there it’s a court in fact you mentioned tree houses so I’m going to mention I’ll
mention that so anyway when we first landed there were one of the things I noticed were
a group of people men and women together coming out of the woods out of the forest to my left and there were all
kinds of houses to my right from all ages all centuries different kinds to my right so to have them coming from the
forest was kind of a surprise I said where did you come from and they I said where do you live and they said we live
in tree houses and um and they said this is what we’re comfortable with so that’s what we have
for now here in heaven and so that was my first clue about a
person feeling comfortable later later after this experience I went and I started doing research and found
out that there are some tribes or a tribe somewhere in like new guinea if I recall that builds tree houses built
houses up in the trees uh tribal people and so then my curiosity was like okay how did you come
to the lord you know etc. but at that time I didn’t know any of that they just said they lived in trails well
um I’ll give you two examples Jennifer I’ll give you two one I shared yesterday or
earlier when we talked um the first example was really from um
I saw two men walking along part of the river
and they were talking about things and um I asked my angel I said so what are
they talking about and my angel said and they’re walking away from me you know but but it’s like
they’re clearly talking I was just curious and there were a bunch of houses like rectangular ranch-style houses all
kind of cluster in a circle down a little ways away and I asked my angel said so what are they talking
about and he said it’s none of your business he said but I can tell you it has to do
with when he le had a big fight with his dad when he was 17 years old and he left the house
and so when they they were talking I said so
I I knew that somehow that they lived on a ranch I said where where are they walking where are they walking to and he said that was their family ranch
and I said what about the houses those little rectangular houses all around he said that’s where the rest of the
relatives and family live and I just thought that’s that just blew my mind that that you know they lived on
a ranch in in real life uh you know on the earth and but they never had a situation but here’s a little cluster of
homes where relatives were together so that was interesting but one of the most telling was
we came walking by and there was this uh kind of a Victorian style
American right out of a catalog house with a wraparound front porch but it was small it wasn’t like a big
sprawling Victorian mansion this was just a little small maybe
maybe a couple bedrooms upstairs type of size with a wrap around porch one front door
and one window you know looking out through the porch and then a covered porch and then a small upstairs
relatively small house but it was still had that wraparound porch and all that and there’s a dirt path like like
some grass and like you might make with wagon wheels almost or tires going back and there’s a like a mud hut
um that I had only seen in like national geographic of and and from missionary friends and some
of our affiliates in different parts of Africa like in Kenya and Uganda and such
that it was like a basically a mud hut kind of a reddish mud to it
and anyway so I walked back there and this woman comes out
and I you know just said I was just curious I’m sorry you’ve got this house out
front and then you’ve got this hut back here and she said she said yes she said I
lived in Kenya and this is my this is my home this is what I was comfortable with and where I
lived on earth but I had seen pictures of those American homes with the wrap-around porch and it looked so neat
and and tidy and she said I always wanted my heart I always wanted something like that I always wanted that
house so when I came to heaven the father was gracious enough to me to
give me that but and she said and I go there and I spend time there and I but I sit on the porch and talk to people as they walk by
and I spend time there but you said I’m I’m more comfortable in the home that I grew up in
and I just thought again it was like oh the father is so good he’s just so kind
you know just there’s such a feeling of comfort there and peace and grace and answers to your
heart’s desire you know people will say oh when I get to I’m going to have a mansion it’s going to have 14 rooms and everything
it’s like you know what the things of the earth drop off the things that you think you would ask the lord
uh here it’s like oh if I ever see Jesus I’m gonna ask you this no that’s of the flesh none of that gets through none of that
that even matters the only the things of the spirit matter the things of the heart are what the father moves on
because he is a spirit and he addresses us in our spirit and so that’s the that’s the nature of things
uh in heaven so it’s amazing that’s biblical I said so give
all the desires of your heart so if you don’t get it on earth you’re going to get in heaven the good desires and those desires are
in line with him that’s right you know that’s what’s special about them exactly exactly so so do you know
if you saw any house that looked like a mansion there or or were they all just different because
I know you saw row houses like in Philadelphia how they have it there so you saw different did you see any big
houses or not when you were there yeah they were you know there were big houses like you might see in an American neighborhood or
or a European neighborhood you know nowadays uh there were houses individual
with larger yards and stuff like that there was just all kinds all kinds it’s it’s the thing that struck me
honestly was that how how heaven is really just a city you know and I know that I know that we
talk about the heavenly Jerusalem and it’s a city Jerusalem is a city and we talk about the city of Zion
and you can read in the book of revelation where heaven uh you know prepared as a bride for her husband descends down into the earth
and though you know those things mentally but when you actually see it you come away and say you know what this is just
a big city and life goes on it’s got a huge rural area a huge
you know just a huge area and uh you know we talked about earlier about how heaven is larger on the inside than it
is on the outside which Jesus explained the kingdom of heaven is like a seed
and the question I always ask people is if you have one apple seed how many apple trees are in that single seed
and in that single tree how many apples are in on that tree and how many apple seeds are in those apples so a single
apple seed is larger on the inside than it is on the outside and that’s how human beings are I have
I’m 64 years old I have gifts I have talents I have hobbies I have things that I’d like to do and explore
you know I can tell you all about myself and things that I’d like woodworking and I like the study of gems and I’d like to
have a wood shop and a workshop I’d like to make boats and furniture and love to
do all these kinds of things I I don’t have the time the age the money the energy
but I’m already in eternity that’s the thing that that I came away with is that if something in my heart doesn’t
come to pass now in this life maybe 200 years from now in the millennial age 500 years from now 600
years from now I don’t know what good things the father has for me but I know that it’s good
I know that he’s going to continue to show forth the riches of his kindness towards us in Christ and so
I have a much much greater patience a much bigger big picture look at things that life
really does just go on um you know Jennifer something that I tell people especially when I deal with
agnostics or atheists or people like this and I first heard it from the lips of my
wife’s grandmother um when barb and I were first married and and everything we her she her
grandmother was a was a Christian and towards the end of her life she was in a wheelchair about 89 90 years old in a
wheelchair in a nursing home and she she chuckled one day and she said
you know she said in time she said inside I still feel like that 17 year old girl who
could run through the the orchard at at our farm she said but my body’s changed around me
and that I mean I was just a young man barb and I were married when we were 19 and 20. and
I remember that stuck with me that the proof that we are eternal beings
is that inside we still feel the same as we did when we were a teenager or a young person but our bodies have changed
around us that proves that you don’t need your body to live because you’re inside in your spirit in
your soul it has gone on unchanged it was not been affected by the years by
the decades even inside you still feel like you could you know in my case I still feel like I could dunk a
basketball you know but I but my body’s changed I’m not in the shape for it
um and it’s like her grandmother you know nearly 90 years old saying I was inside I still feel like that 17 year
old girl who could run through the orchard she said but my body’s changed around me that lines up with what I saw
in heaven which is of course our lord is like in his mid-30s early to mid-30s and people look like
that except that if they died when they were older their years of experience even in the
world but their years of experience the wisdom that they now have in retrospect looking at it
through the lord’s eyes and any time that they had in the lord somehow that is reflected in their eyes
and on their face and you know that they’re an old person but physically they still look young
and there’s nothing on earth to compare it to that I could say except that the effects of gravity and time disappear
because it’s just your spirit and soul right now in body your spirit and soul so you you reach that point of
agelessness of maturity and then you stay there but somehow your life experiences is
somehow written on your countenance and it’s pretty amazing actually wow but there’s nothing to compare it to yeah I
can never stay the man yeah I always try to fathom when everyone says that but I just can’t is there anything else you
saw in heaven that’s pretty neat oh stuff that I’m willing to to share and
talk about to me the most precious one is around the father’s throne you know
like I described earlier the father and I um I’ve known the father since I was you
know 16 17 years old really talking to him and and getting to know him so
you can read in john chapter 1 where it says no man has seen the father but the son who’s in the bosom of the
father has revealed it that’s like john 1 18 maybe 16 17 18. and then Jesus said in john chapter 6
you know somewhere verse 45 46 something like that that nobody has seen the father but the son has seen him
the context of those statements is in the flesh and the reason we know that you cannot
see the father in the flesh is your earth body could not handle his glory his power
your earth body would be dissolved and it’s in that context in those two verses in the gospel of john that Jesus is
speaking about or that the apostle john’s speaking about and the reason we know that is because the father god is
seen at least four times in scripture now the biggest one that people really
know about is the in the revelation chapter four where the apostle john is caught up into
heaven and he sees the throne of the father god and he describes him and he describes the rainbow round about the
throne he describes a clear flooring before the throne he describes the cherubs around singing holy holy holy
and that’s all of revelation chapter four and we know it’s the father because in chapter five the apostle john starts
crying because there’s a bunch of scrolls that the father scroll that the father has in his hand and nobody’s
worthy to open it and and they tell him said no no the lion of the tribe of Judah the lamb of
god who was slain but is now alive he has been found worthy to open the scroll and to loose the seals thereof and then
revelation 5 and about verse 7 says that he that is the lamb came and took the book out of the right
hand of him who sat upon the throne so we know that Jesus received his kingdom from the father that’s
revelation 1 1 says this is the revelation that the father gave that god gave his son Jesus to show to the saints
the second example is Daniel Daniel chapter seven and Daniel sees almost the same scene
he sees one that he calls the ancient of days he said the ancient of days did sit
and the books were opened and all the multitudes were brought before him and then there came the son of man to
the ancient of days and the ancient of days gave him a kingdom gave the son of man a kingdom that will have no end so
again the ancient of days is the father and Daniel sees him Moses talked to the lord face to face we
are told and only that time that he was in the flesh that the lord said okay okay you’re not in spirit now you’re in
the flesh so you better get behind this rock you know and then I’ll then I’ll show you um Ezekiel chapter one Ezekiel’s season
two he sees the throne coming to to uh near him and he sees the father and he describes uh the clear flooring
under the under the throne he describes uh the same cherubs around he describes
the rainbow around same scene in revelation 4. so the father is seen
four times five times and so people have it wrong if they say oh you know I went to heaven but I couldn’t see
the father’s face well yeah you can if you’re in the spirit uh in the flesh you die
so um have you seen the father anyway
oh yeah yeah um but when you’re in the spirit again it’s
like there’s only so much in the natural that you can actually continue in you know when peter was in the spirit and he saw
on the mount of transfiguration in Luke chapter nine he saw Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus and talked to Jesus
out of the law and the prophets about his death that would happen in Jerusalem and peter what does peter do hey let’s
build some tents one for Moses one for Elijah one for you Jesus and we’ll just have a little camp meeting right here
you know because it all seems so normal and so natural so my heart is always to worship the father so I just suddenly found myself
on my knees to the side as if the father was looking straight ahead I was on his left on his
left side and and this is rare because I really don’t
share this uh this first time I was with the father but it’s special but I just I feel I can I could share it
anyway so I my hands are down the flooring is like it says it’s kind of it’s clear but it’s white it’s pure
light and it’s got a beveled edge the tiles are really well fit together but kind of
beveled but not like you trip on it or catch a heel or something there’s just a a
a roundness you know to the edges slightly and um and the father’s there’s he’s it’s
not you don’t think of him as 50 feet tall or 100 feet tall or or something like that I suppose if you
were a child he might you might think he’s 30 feet tall because throne goes up a little bit it’s not like it’s sitting
like a recliner on your living room there’s there’s steps up to it and everything and there’s cherubs around there now I’d
seen chairs before in another experience visitation they’re about five and a half
feet tall they’re not very big they’re multiple winged like it’s described
um it was interesting that I was worshiping and I’ll tell you I’ll share this with you and it may sound goofy but I’m
telling you this is what this is what happened so I’m worshiping and the father looks at me he turns and he looks at me and he
says I’ll be back and just then the cherubs the two on my
side start beating their wings and there is this iridescent dust
uh that’s the glory cloud if imagine if you’re in a fog and every single piece
of fog is a different color okay just imagine that you could see the
mist and they start beating and starting it sounds like a helicopter almost coming to you just
and there was a point that they started beating their wings so fast and sound like that helicopter coming at you and suddenly those those all those little
iridescent particles of glory just suddenly burst into flame and they were a complete ball of flame completely
enclosed in flames and and I could see through that they bent down and somehow
they lifted up the flooring where the father was seated and they picked up the
flooring and they put it like on their shoulders and then the whole and they did this in unison so that the the
throne platform is now on the cherub’s shoulders and then it picks up like this and the father says I’ll be back and it
goes like that and banks away like an airplane and I’m going in my mind I’m going okay
chapter verse chapter verse chapter verse you know and I’m I’m going back to Ezekiel chapter
one where Ezekiel is standing by the river key bar and he sees
what he describes as balls of fire coming at him and it’s he’s describing the throne
platform of the father god and and then in my mind I remembering that that
the lord the father is an oriental king and oriental kings if you if you’ve ever
seen a Chinese tapestry if you’ve ever seen uh India Indian
subcontinent of India if you’ve ever seen anything from India they hold their potent tapes they hold their officials
their kings their emperors on their shoulders on a on a dice there that there’s a seat and everything and I
remembered how the Levites were instructed to run a pole through the ark of the covenant and carried on their
shoulders worth the holy of holies and so all this is going through it’s like wow this makes sense I just never thought this is how it would be applied
and it seemed like a half an hour went by you know and I’m thinking okay so the father god does go places
in the universe he can go places he can’t he visited Ezekiel he came down on mount Sinai you know in revelation 4 he
brought john up to him you know and I’m going through all of this uh the Father came down on the mount of
transfiguration he came down to the top of the mountain to talk to Jesus and Moses and Elijah yeah so he came the
whole process was reversed and he came it seemed like a half an hour He came down that he came in
sat down the cherubs you know took off the shoulder put the flooring back so it was a seamless transition and they stood
there and their wings just slowed down just room like that and anyway
that’s john that blew my mind blew my mind that’s so like visual
visually beautifully glorious I’ve never heard anything like that before
wow well it’s it’s you know that’s why other than telling my wife I really didn’t say
much for years and years that’s no it’s a blessing I feel like still yeah but I’ve been before the fault of many times
before many times since and you didn’t have to die to get to heaven right [Laughter]
well like I shared earlier I said the first time it happened I was like father I want to make sure this is a round trip
uh no this was a this was a visitation it seemed it seemed like in my mind it
took hours and hours but on earth time I think it was something like 40 minutes
but it seemed like hours and hours I had all the time in the world um
you know it’s it’s really the way time is um
there’s stuff I could share with you that I can’t share chat that I could can’t prove chapter and verse but I don’t know if anybody’d be interested in
listening to it anyway um but I can just say that that heaven’s real it’s a big city
and and relatives and friends and people who knew you as a baby but you never knew
uh who gone on um it’s just amazing that life can goes on and it’s very very
normal it’s very very normal you’re not all just just hanging around playing harps or something like that you’re there’s a lot
of talking going on a lot of just visiting and people telling their stories and
probably like the gospel of john that you know all the books of the world couldn’t contain uh the full content of what the lord has
done and there’s a lot of sharing like that and just having fun just there was there was there was a lady who
I knew on earth uh had been afraid of birds and and
and when I saw her she was sitting there holding a bird on her this was a separate this is a
separate uh uh separate visitation or whatever but she was holding a bird and looking at a
bird and on earth she was afraid of birds so it was like it was very interesting
butterflies and birds and and animals very very normal and if you think about it again that heaven comes down to earth
at the end of the revelation it only makes sense that all of that is still there right that’s right so heaven is
like earth right heaven looks like earth but it’s 100 100 times better right or a million
times better yeah yeah yeah it is very comfortable very everything is the same and yet
everything is different but but it’s it’s very comfortable
at ease completely now is there a sky do you see a sky I know there’s no sun but is there a sky
in heaven do you see clouds and blue uh you know what I saw was just uh blues
and pastels um in the sky uh I could tell by the intensity of the
light where the throne was because it was pure white light um so I would imagine
that the rough facsimile on earth would be like a setting sun or
a rising sun except this was pure white light off in the distance where the sky was was pure
white but the rest of the sky is blue and and pinks and just different pastels
and everything really pretty what about food a lot of people wonder I like food I want to eat food I want
the best of the food is there food in heaven and if so can I eat it
um you know the largest part of that question I don’t have an answer for
I can say that there’s fruit and that when you eat that fruit um not that I ate it but that I
could see you know what people were doing um that there is like revelation
you know on earth not everything of your food is absorbed into your body not part of it is waste you know goes
down the toilet but in heaven there’s no waste so every bit of it is absorbed and becomes a
nutrient but it also has some sort of a a presence where I know that there is I
want to say revelation or a depth a greater depth of understanding and appreciation of the lord it’s not that
everything is like super ultra spiritual it’s just that everything in heaven can’t help but reflect the things of god
so when people eat like a fruit it’s like absorbed into their system without any waste
and and there’s an element of revelation or depth of understanding
a nuance if you will kind of nuance of what you already know but a depth that goes in so it’s it’s pretty interesting
yeah and there will be food because the marriage supper of the lamb is all about food
but I don’t know what exactly that’s going to entail so yeah yeah good answer
so question for you so a lot of people who watch this channel you have believers and you have unbelievers um
they’re wondering does only good people go to heaven is
only Christian people go to heaven answer this I already know this answer a lot of people do but a lot of people do
not know that people who are in heaven do you have to be a believer in Jesus Christ to get
there good question and I’m going to the the
standard answer and I’ll give you some real life examples okay
I already told you about the boy in India who did not know the name of the creator
and because of his ignorance all he knew was I want to know the creator I want to
know who made that field and those trees are those grasses and and flowers
and he found out his name is Jesus similar experience with the Choco Indians of Panama
some very good friends of ours became missionaries uh in Panama to the Choco Indians the Choco
live between where Panama and the darien jungle and the nation of Columbia all meet
and it’s a dangerous it’s the most thickest part of the jungle in the world
in fact you may not realize this but there’s a highway called the pan American highway and it goes from Alaska
down to the tip of south America and you can actually travel if you want to get in Alaska or you want to get to south America and you want to travel one
way or the other you can actually travel the length of the Americas on the pan am highway but there’s one area that they never
completed because it’s too thick too too treacherous and that is the Darien jungle where the chocos live
and the and after our friends had been down there a couple years and many of the people the many of the chocks
had readily accepted the lord at that time they thought there would be about 70 000 total population down there and
many of the villages just as a whole village just believed on the lord Jesus
and some time later our friends said you know why
do you believe so easily it didn’t take hardly anything to to convince you about
Jesus and they said they told him this they said when we became a people and anthropologists believe that they
became a people around the year 900 so it was you know after Jesus 900 years
after Jesus but uh about five or six hundred years before the uh conquistadors arrived so in the year
900 he he said when we became a people a being in white appeared to our
forefathers and he said worship the creator the god who who gives you all the jungle
and all the plants and the animals for your use and love one another that’s
what’s required of you and then disappeared and so the Choco you know fathers said you know here we
are these last you know what is to us you know 600 years or whatever the case is or 1100
years excuse me 11 1200 years he said we’ve been doing that he said we did we’ve been
worshiping the creator of the jungle but we didn’t know his name until you came and so one we learned his name was very
easy for us to to believe uh in his name and then he confirmed it with signs and
wonders and you know they had all they still to this day of all sorts of miracles so what you
have to do certainly Jesus is the way the truth and the life if you
want to get to know the father you have to believe in Jesus but I want to take it a step further Jesus said in john 17 3
this is eternal life to know you my father and your son whom you’ve who
you’ve sent it’s not just believing believing on the lord Jesus is not a philosophy it is not like I believe in
buddha I believe in Jesus I believe in Krishna it’s not like that at all to once you make that choice and say I’m
going to take this step of faith and believe god’s working on my heart I’ve got to do something with my soul
why am I here on this earth he’s right I feel the same on the inside as I did when I you know 30 years ago or when I
was a kid and so it’s not just believing it is knowing when you
when you make that decision when you recognize that hey he’s right you know I’m the same on the inside as I was as
when I was a kid or a teenager but my body’s changed around me I don’t have the same abilities that I used to
physically but inside I’m still the same person once you recognize that and you say Jesus take charge of my life I I
want to know my purpose in life I want to know why I’m here on the planet then it’s not just believing but it’s
knowing and that’s what what Jesus said to know you father and his and uh your your son whom you’ve
sent so it’s believing and knowing and they are inseparable so it’s not like a
philosophy it is to believe in no and it’s very simple you know all I did was just say
lord it makes sense to serve you now because you’re going to have the final word the last say in my life so I give
you my life it was that simple the boy in India all he did was I want to know the creator I don’t know who it is who
his name is but I want to know him uh the Choco Indians it’s the same way I
I know he’s the creator and there are probably people out there who said I’ve always believed god it’s the creator in
the larger sense of the world in the world’s beauty and and all of that I don’t understand how that could
be evil I don’t understand why he doesn’t step in I don’t understand why he allows bad things to happen
but I still believe in god in the general sense um that is the next step is to say
I give you my life I don’t understand everything but I give you my life and that believing in in Jesus and that
getting to know the father um you know if I could just for what people
go through the new testament calls illuminating or the eyes of their understanding being opened
um in in Hebrews 6 4 it says that you first have to become enlightened and
then you taste the heavenly gift you can’t just decide okay I’m going to accept Jesus there is an enlightenment
there is a a tug on the heart in in john chapter 6
verses 44 and through 46 Jesus is talking he says no he says
first as it is written all men will be taught of god therefore those who have learned of god
come to me and so what Jesus is saying is there is a a drawing process
that a person feels in their heart that’s like I’ve got to do something with my life I’ve got to find answers
why am I here what is my purpose who can help me out of this mess and and that is the drawing that is the
eyes being open enlightenment that you say I need something larger than myself I need someone larger than myself
and then you take that step of faith and say Jesus taking control of my life father god take control of my life
and then you just it all just changes because he’s real it’s not just not just
a philosophy it it is actually knowing that you can know god to me this is the greatest
adventure anybody could have to know god are you kidding me somebody says hey I know god and I can
help you to know him too that’s the greatest adventure in life to know god
he’s unfathomable he’s sovereign if he was predictable he wouldn’t be god
well speaking of that you mentioned to me that or you explained the
feeling of the presence between the difference of the father son holy spirit and angels so there’s
different feelings where you can know who’s who could you share that right
sure um the father
the father the the trinity if you will spirit soul and body we are a trinity spirit soul and body
um in our spirit man that is the deepest part of us where we wonder
why am I here what is my purpose that’s when you lay in your bed at night and you look down on the inside of you and
you say I feel so empty I don’t have direction I don’t have purpose and you contemplate things down deepest in you
that’s your spirit and your soul is where you think and feel okay
when you’re thinking on those things you’re you’re usually kind of still you’re looking at your deeper innermost parts so the presence of the father is
very much like that he is a spirit and so he deals with us down there where our
spirit man is he is the father of spirits we’re told in Hebrews 12 9 he created our spirit so he is the one who
created us who gifted us who purposed things in our lives so the presence of the father and the
way I could explain it to people who have been in a worship service um
is like a holy hush the presence of the father who deals with the inner core reasons of why we’re here the direction
of our life our purpose in life um why he created us deep deep deep things
that his presence feels like a holy hush it’s the it’s where you’re sitting there in the worship and nobody says a thing
it’s where your feet feel like you’re you’ve got shoes of cement of concrete where you you just feel like you would
be violating something sacred if you spoke if you got up and moved if you said anything or did anything you feel
like you’d be violating the thickness of the atmosphere it’s a very holy very quiet very hush-hush type of you just
sit there in in silence and that’s the father’s presence he deals with people way down on the
inside Jesus however is like the soul Jesus deals with our thoughts our emotions he became a man so he could
experience what we experienced the father god’s a spirit he’s never he’s never slept he doesn’t know what it’s
like to have to use the bathroom he’s never gotten tired he’s never gotten hungry but Jesus left that to become a
man so that he could experience these things so when the presence of the lord Jesus is very much like
in the soulish realm in our fears in our worries and our concerns in our joys
in our laughter in our sadness he’s very in the in the emotional realm that’s why you find the presence of the lord is
more like to touch someone’s mind and their memories and their hurts or maybe
physically something that they they need healing on and that’s the presence of Jesus
the holy spirit is the holy spirit is the bridge the
communicator john 16 13. Jesus had just told the disciples in
verse 12 I’ve got lots more to say to you but you can’t grasp it right now but and then in verse 13 he said when the
holy spirit comes he will not speak of himself he’ll guide you into all truth because he will not speak
of himself but whatever he hears that’s what he will speak and he’ll show you
things to come and so the holy spirit’s methods of communicating from the lord Jesus
and from the father is guide speak and show but only only speak is verbal the rest of them are are visual or or
perceptions witness discerning something like that so the presence of the holy spirit is when he speaks it’s on the
inside and it’s loud it is very specific the father can communicate things like
you discern something you pick up on something you perceive something I feel right about this this bears witness with
me uh I feel an urge to pick up a phone a friend you know it crosses my mind I wonder
what they’re doing I think I’ll contact them and find out that they have a prayer request but the holy spirit when
he speaks it is clear it is concise in acts chapter 8 um
the holy spirit said to Philip join yourself to that chariot
the angel said something specific to him too earlier take the road that goes down to
the desert through Gaza and and take that road
but angels are from the outside because they’re individuals the holy spirit is on the inside uh the holy spirit um talked to peter in
acts chapter 10 and he was up on the rooftop and he was in a trance and he saw this vision
and then the holy spirit spoke to him and said there are three men below who are looking for you go with them nothing
doubting because I’ve sent them and there were three gentiles three romans so he wouldn’t normally have gone with
them but the holy spirit gave very specific directions my experience has been when people say I heard god audibly
or I heard his voice 99 times out of 100 once I interview him in detail
and kind of interrogate what actually was going on 99 times out of 100 they have heard the holy spirit for the very
first time in their lives it was not audible except to them it was it was because they’re not used
to god just speaking loudly clearly and it does sound like a loud speaker in the brain
you know and so people was like okay did everybody hear that uh that’s how it sounds audible I heard god audibly what
they’re really hearing if you look at the book of acts they’re just hearing the holy spirit and that’s what happens to me when I
give a prophetic word it’s like in acts 21 21 where Agabus the
prophet grabs Paul’s belt and he says this is what the holy spirit says the man who
owns his belt will be arrested by the Jews and turned over to the romans and that means against heard
the holy spirit himself via the father the son but communicating directly what they said
and that’s that happens pretty often with me now didn’t used to but it does it has
now for a long time but there so there is the distinction the father’s presence feels very heavy
uh like you don’t want to move you don’t want to speak you don’t feel like you sh like you could even sometimes you just
feel like very heavy like your feet are very heavy you can’t move Jesus deals with the solar system the physical realm
and deals with our emotions our hurts our thoughts our anguish our joys our worries and then the holy spirit when he
gives direction he’s not speaking of himself but whatever he hears that’s what he speaks according to john 16 13.
and this is what Paul said in first Corinthians chapter 2 as well verses 9 through 16.
he said that I ear in imagination cannot know the things that god’s prepared for those that love him
but he has revealed these things to us by his spirit or the spirit searches the deep things of the father god
and so the holy spirit is there searching right now what has the father got for us so when he hears something from the father he communicates it to us
so when a person says I’ve heard the holy spirit that’s a direct word direct from the father and so when they speak
to you the father is to me he sounds like a dad like an
authoritative not not like over you know anxious whatever but he’s just he’s just the boss you
know he’s too heavy whereas Jesus is like I said more in the soul of trump it’s hard to explain but uh
so how about the difference with angels so how would you know what an angel
yeah and angel that’s interesting if you look at the book of acts and you look at the old testament as
well angels are always on the outside because they’re individuals they feel like a person anointed by the
spirit just like a human being they feel like a person they have the presence of the holy spirit the same way a Christian
might have if you were alone in a room and suddenly you feel like somebody else is there
and it’s not real real strong like it’s you know the lord himself but you feel like the presence of the lord but like
it’s a person and usually they’re you know if they’re gonna talk to you they’re
within four or five feet and it comes across uh what they say if you perceive it in your spirit sometimes it’s almost like a
suggestion it’s it’s usually um just a sentence or two that’s specific
and like I said it can be like a suggestion almost it’s like um
you know I shared earlier with you when I was 14 years old I had a mini bike and my mom’s rule was you always wear a
helmet john if you’re going to work ride that mini bike well
I a kid wanted to race me his go-kart said he could go as fast as my mini bike could about 40 miles an hour and I heard
behind me I was debating I was holding my helmet I was debating I’m a 14 year old kid you know what you
know what I’m saying it’s like I’ve got a little bit of pride there I’m a teenage boy should I wear my helmet or not I look
stupid in this helmet it was an old football helmet that I painted gold to match the paint on the
mini bike you know and I heard this voice behind me say go ahead and obey your mom and put on your
helmet and I heard that I knew at the time it was out from the outside I perceived it
but I never really processed it and as soon as I heard it I took it almost like my own suggestion and said you know what I think I’ll go ahead and
obey my mom put on my helmet put on the helmet went over to his house raced he ran into me had a wreck
had a concussion three days in the hospital another five days recovering at home that helmet saved my life
but it was that voice of that that voice that was almost like a suggestion a very gentle go ahead and obey your mom and
put on your helmet that’s oftentimes how an angel is it’s it’s it’s it’s like
I’m convinced having talked to different people down through the years I’m convinced that a
lot of people find their missing car keys their sunglasses and things of that nature they receive
reminders uh you know I left home and you have this nagging feeling I forgot something what did I forget and then they hear a
voice it just comes up out of them you know you forgot to take the receipt to get your money back
or you know you’re saying okay father where in the world did I put my glasses and suddenly there’s this this
suggestion it’s like look over in your go look in the closet you know you were you were there with your hands in the
you know holding your keys when you got that out of the closet and you inadvertently left them on the shelf in the closet and then shut the door people
have experiences like that all the time they don’t always realize they’re saying okay is that an angel is it the lord what is that well when it comes from the
outside and it almost seems like a suggestion that floats floats somehow into your your mind of like a suggestion
I think I’ll do this that’s an angel that’s usually an angel that’s good that’s good so john you know
so much about so much but not for any reason well you’re a pastor you’ve
been a pastor for many years and you say you used to pastor churches all around America but
you changed the way you passed her in a way could you tell us about that in your ministry
sure well our website
I think is on your page as well church without walls international I was
in various capacities in ministry for 25 years um actually I started ministering to my
peers as a 16 17 18 year old and I was in that what I would call the
auditorium the traditional church for 25 years um I was I was even an elder and I’m in
a mega church a leader in a mega church a head of a bible school and I’m by mega church I think at that time there were like 13 000 members uh
you know easter service through six services might have 24 000 people I mean it was a big church with a big
production on easter Christmas you know the whole bit um but I saw the good the bad and the ugly
of doing what I would call professional Christianity and there are different you know
Jennifer there are different things that happen in your life that are like little check marks where god gets your attention
one of those was a former student of mine she had been in one of my bible school classes which means that she was
surrounded by you know 150 or 200 kids or something or adults excuse me
and she was a part of the church choir which meant there were 200 people in that and she went to practice for the
for every Thursday night and she’s a single woman in the early 40s and one day I learned that she had
gone out to one of the lakes on the west side of Tulsa here uh lake west on the west side of Tulsa and at sundown put a
gun to her head and killed herself and I thought there’s over 10 000 people
in this church there’s a couple hundred people in the choir she sat in a bible school class with a
hundred fifty hundred seventy five two hundred people whatever how is it nobody knew her how is it we
did not know her and she didn’t know anybody to reach out to help her before she committed suicide that’s one of
those little okay remarks so I began I began asking the lord
asking the father you know how to do church um how you know how how
you know I began I began I left that position I began traveling around north America talking to some you know big
names and and stuff like that and the questions were always the same how do I grow my church how do I pay for my
church how do I keep people from leaving my church and it’s like they were all advertising
we’re different but in reality they were the same and we were becoming increasingly irrelevant to our culture
so I I had some students who had been to Indonesia and different places like that and they talked about house church
so I was searching the father I’d been down to Brownsville I’d gotten to know them down there a little bit and I was
seeking the father saying where are you moving next so in February 4th of 2001
I was in Mississauga Ontario and the lord appeared to me during the worship service my eyes were wide open I
saw the worship team I was worshiping but suddenly the lord was there and he came walking over and he said this
he said see what I see people running to and fro to this meeting and that looking for the
spectacular thinking that is supernatural while they miss the supernatural work in their midst even in
their own hearts for the process of discipleship is supernatural and then he said a few more things then
he said this as it was in the beginning so it must be now I’m moving in relationships
that was February 4th of 2001. so for the next few months I I realized Jennifer something that
poor that I had to repent of that I was horrified with and that is this I saw
that the whole of the new testament from Matthew through the revelation was written by apostles doing church in
the house and they were writing to people who were doing church in the house
and I repented I was horrified that for 25 years I had pulled the New Testament
out of the context and tried to put it in an auditorium and make it work and no wonder there are so many books in the
bookstores and everything else about how to do church because because the whole 1700 years of Christianity was all about
pulling it out of the home and trying to squeeze it and make it work in the auditorium and it the five-fold the
gifts of the spirit um everything the lord’s supper everything it was all designed to be in the home
so once I realized that and then I started I started researching the body of Christ in China in India in places
around the world and I saw u.s center for world missions you know said that Christianity is the
fastest growing church religion in the world 7.7 or 7.8 percent
and it’s all in house church and I heard a Chinese house church leader
say that a million Chinese come to the lord every single month and they all go right into home-based churches
and I started realizing that the house church people didn’t meet in houses in in the book of acts because of
persecution it was actually part of the synagogue system that had begun in about 160 bc when they developed a national
education program uh because they were losing the Jewishness of what it is to be Jewish
and so they they began meeting in homes on Saturdays on sabbath and they began
rotating who leads and and everything they would have 10 families as a as a
general minimum they would rotate homes they would take turns reading the scripture the ones who started all the pharisees
copied the word and they would go through and they’d open the scrolls and you could read from different passages
so when Pentecost happened they just kept meeting in homes and of course the first home where the lord met with
people was Adam and eve in the garden two or three are gathered in my name I’m there in the midst so
god’s never left the home and I told barb in October of 2001 I said I don’t want
to pastor a church again but if I did it would be out of my out of our living room the way Paul did it and then
November 4th of 2001. so the first visitation was in February this is November and I’m in Edmonton Alberta western
Canada Sunday night service and the lord again appears this time he’s got the power turned up
the pastor next to me falls on his face three guys three bible school students that we had with us later said Jesus was
there we saw him he walked right past us for me my strength weakened I fell to my
knees which I do anyway when I see the lord usually that is just the power was turned up
and he said this he said you’ve learned much from the people I’ve brought across your path the last few months and what
you studied in the word he said and you’ve been doing the work of an apostle but now I’m laying hands on you for this task
and he started and he put his hands on me he said I want you to start he said I said you’ve been doing the work of
impossible now I’m laying hands on you as an apostle for this task I want you to start a house church in a house church network and I want you to
structure it in such a way to facilitate the development of house churches around the world
and I said lord why why would I do that I mean frankly I was earning a good living I was traveling all over north
America teaching in lots of different churches and venues and stuff um mixing with some of the bigger names
you know that sort of a thing why would you want me to do that and he said this he said it’s against a time to
come be a resource for them for it’s needed for it’s against a time to come
so we started in January of 2002 in our house my wife had the same a similar revelation the lord actually told her a
few months before that we were going to be doing house church and now we’re in 50 60 nations of we’re
not a denomination we’re not a top-down organization we’re just a bunch of people on the same spiritual page
who want to do church the way Paul and the apostles did church and that is informally often there’s a
meal involved you take turns who hosts who leads it’s it’s very much a fellowship
community family and it works um and it’s amazing it’s amazing I
the lord still appears to me I encourage people to sign up go to our website and sign up for my weekly thoughts in my newsletter my newsletter is where I
generally put in anything prophetic or recent visitations in fact I shared
in today’s as we’re recording this today’s newsletter I share a recent visitation I had with the lord
where he talked about some of the future events and I put that in the e-newsletter and they’re archived on our website so you
can find them there too under the newsletter but but sign up the teachings aren’t all about house church a lot of
stuff like what I’ve experienced and what the lord’s taught me out of the word so um
doing church in the home amen so what’s what’s your website and how else can people
reach you yeah the website church without walls international my book that of my journey from the
auditorium to the house is is called return of the first church
and they can get that online amazon return of the first church you know for your folks like I I do
every Wednesday morning I do a YouTube video about usually 10 to 7 to 15 minutes in length 7 to 13
minutes in length every Wednesday on YouTube and you can sign up for that too and you’ll find on there that I’ve
offered to email the pdf of my book return of the first church to anybody
for free I’m I’m not I’ve been to heaven I’m not I’ve got to earn a living but I’m not trying to
get rich uh you know so I tell people if you will email me.
I will upload the pdf of my journey return of the first church to you or you can ask for pursuing the
seasons of god which is documented some of the early visitations like I described earlier I’ll send you that pdf as well
so I just want people to be blessed and to know the father and to know the lord
I don’t it’s just it’s just he’s just good well john I want to thank
you so much for accepting this interview you know I’ve I’ve interacted with you
for what four years or so and to see the fruit of the spirit in you and just the
knowledge that you have of god and just the relationship um and you’re very reliable I found um I want to ask you if
you could could you please pray for people who want to know father son holy spirit and to have that
intimate relationship with him like you’ve been experiencing yeah I would just say this that don’t turn it into a
religion turn make sure it’s a relationship I tell people if they want to know their
heavenly father you know a lot of people can relate to Jesus and because he’s so relatable but
the father they think of an angry god with a baseball bat sitting up in the sky and
and so when you read like john 14 9 where Jesus said if you’ve seen me you’ve seen the father the mind goes
tilt because of Old Testament stuff that is really either improperly translated or you
don’t understand the context or or you’ve been taught wrong so get to know the heavenly father every
prayer in the New Testament every request prayer of the new testament is to the father and I I encourage you to
talk to him conversationally uh you don’t even have to pray a prayer of saying okay I’ve got to do this and
then talk just start talking to the father and he’ll sound funny trust me I was there I was there I remember being
alone in my bedroom as a teenager saying okay this sounds funny but I’m gonna talk to you and I talked out loud but
you can talk just conversationally thank him for for the little coincidences the little bits of serendipity that happened
during the day the little little happy things it’s like wow you got that parking spot or oh the light was green I
was able to go that way or oh wow I just happen to run into my neighbor that I haven’t seen before you turn that and you say thank you father for that thank
you for ordering my steps you turn into conversation thank you for a great morning what a beautiful sunrise pretty
sunset talk to him conversationally that’s the way you get it going so I
want to just pray with you that that you will have what I always pray is what Paul prayed for people
and so and so let me just pray that and you’ll you’ll understand the gist of what Paul prayed for
in my heart for you too in that conversational relationship with the father god and with the lord Jesus but
father god I ask right now according to what Paul prayed in Ephesians 1 17 through 19 that you would give us the
spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of you that you would open the eyes of our
understanding to know the invitation that we have in you and that in Ephesians 3 14-20 similarly
father that you would strengthen everyone listening and watching by your spirit in their inner man so
that they can know that which is beyond knowing that is the height and the depth and the breadth and the length and the
width the full volume of the love of Christ do that in their spirit man open the eyes of their understanding
cause just a resonance even if the mind is going idle I don’t know what’s going on but you can feel a resonance you can
feel a witness on the inside let that witness from your spirit father continue to grow in them and and draw them and
pull them forth father speak to them show them things that they never had before father let them know you’ve been
there the whole time and show them areas of their lives why they’re alive now even even before years and years before
where you saved their life where you where you caused things to to not happen to them uh
you know where they were saved out of a precarious situation or there was a provision that just happened to happen
or maybe there was a voice that spoke to them not to do this or to do that or maybe they just had that leading that
premonition that that urge to do something to know that you have been talking to them their whole lifetime to
bring them to this point of decision to bring them to this point of just getting
to know you for the first time in their life to really make an effort not that they just knew you in a nebulous sort of
way or as the creator but now purposefully conversationally
do deciding to say I’m going to have a conversation with god I’m going to talk to him and then I’m going to list for
listen for the casual reply I’m going to listen for the quiet that that still voice that the
the peaceful waters in my soul that he speaks back to me as a result maybe not
audibly maybe audibly but certainly things I can perceive things I can pick up with in my spirit and so father god I
ask that you would do all that and I thank you for doing it I thank you for healing people emotionally and
physically father god let them let them know now even as I’m praying I can sense that there are conditions
which are going to be gradually getting better it’s a slow healing but it’s a turning point right now as you’re
listening for this it’s a condition that’s been chronic and and the Father God is just rearranging your system he’s resetting I
don’t know what system it is but it’s being reset so that your body will recover itself from this chronic
condition and you’ll find uh in hindsight when you find that that’s all gone you’re gonna remember this time so
my Father God did that so thank you Father for your grace thank you for your Spirit in Jesus’ name amen.
John Fenn of church without walls international thank you so much for this
amazing amazing interview hope we can do it again Jennifer thank you so much for having me

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Church Without Walls International - CWOWI

An international house church network founded by John and Barbara Fenn in 2001, which focuses on practicing Christianity based on the model found throughout the New Testament.

John and Barb
CWOWI logo with the roof of a house to represent a church without walls

Who They Are
“Not that we would have dominion over your faith, but rather are helpers of your joy, for by your own faith you stand (II Cor 1:24) We believe the practice of home based churches as depicted in the book of Acts and Paul’s letters is normal Christianity. These churches revolve around friends, neighbors, and co-workers meeting regularly for the purpose of growing in Christ and letting the Lord’s will be done in their midst.”

What They Do
“Our goal is to help build Godly relationships by helping Christians establish new house churches. CWOWI encourages Christians who do not currently attend “church” to build relationships with the believers around them. CWOWI then uses technology to connect those singular house churches to hundreds worldwide. All affiliated house churches are affiliated under a biblically sound statement of faith. CWOWI also serves as a resource for the church.”

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